Driscoll was clearly wrong in his means and methods of addressing young men. However, he was one of the few evangelical pastors to notice what was wrong with modern American church life.
In the below clip he acknowledges that churches need to prioritize winning over the young men and he is spot-on with his assessment of what was going on.
Off-topic: It's interesting that Kevin McClure addresses female SBC pastors primarily by seeing it as "advance warning" for blessing LGBT unions. He doesn't address any theological issues about women clergy:
Actually, the relationship to LGBT was just a "concluding thought" and the article directly addressed the violation of scriptural prohibitions against women exercising authority over men.
For some time now it's been fashionable in SBC churches to refer to men as "guys." Never refer to women as gals, though. It's ladies and guys. I've even seen restrooms labeled that way. So now they want the males to "man up." But a guy can't do that. He's just a guy. They should say "Guy up!" But that won't do will it? They've promoted guyism, and now they're stuck with a bunch of guys.
I think part of what runs behind the negativity is the pressure that pastors feel to lead model families as part of their vocation. This is especially true of guys who hope to be high-profile, "winsome" leaders of big churches. They are supposed to have submissive, stay-at-home wives who do generous unpaid work for the church. A rebellious child can be a real threat to his career. I think some of them secretly resent this pressure and deal with it by putting the same kind of pressure back on the men of the congregation.
Yeh, the Bible is clear that women shouldn't work outside "the house", even Proverbs 31 shows a women working in the family economy, not for another man. She shouldn't have competing authorities and the Bible clearly states that the man who doesn't provide is worse than an infidel. There may be exigent circumstances that play into that, but those should be the exception that prove the rule.
Tangential comment: Mark Driscoll did not open his sermon by praying to God. He pretended to pray, because that gave him a passive and submissive audience for his comments. They were comments, a lecture, not a prayer.
The best that can be said is that this is a dishonest rhetorical style. Being less charitable, such a person does not really feel the presence of God in worship, and thinks a worship service is all about him and his cleverness.
Interesting that he specifically says, "I pray for my tone" when he had already decided he was going to go on a rant at the end. You are right it was not a prayer. I don't know the history of Mars Hill that well, but the comments at around 3:30 in the "How Dare You" clip seem like Driscoll is primarily complaining about low engagement with men attending the church. It sounded like a harsher version of the typical mega church exhortation to become a member and join a small group anyone who has attended one of those churches for more than a few months has heard before. Only in this case, it was solely aimed at men and delivered with the bravado of a pro wrestler. Was there a problem at Mars Hill of women committed and involved to the church with boyfriends/husbands who weren't really engaged?
The tone there gave me goosebumps, and not in a good way -- “pro wrestler” captures it, including the forced artificiality.
I suppose I have a preference for a more sober, teaching sort of sermon. The old Baptist style of preacher who is nearly (or actually) brought to tears with his response to Christ’s grace at his sermon’s emotional peak -- I can appreciate it occasionally, but it’s generally too much for me. But I’ll take that a thousand times over the tone of Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man.
I suspect a lot of these pastors desperately need an unlimited supply of female validation, and the best way to get that is to teach that women need to check all their ideas about the Bible with a wise man, while tearing down their male parishioners' authority to actually speak for themselves. Women are already primed to adulate their pastor (hypergamy), and when they hear every Sunday that their husband sucks but they need male leadership to understand the Bible, where do they go? To nice pastor Mark who is oh so spiritual and is such a better man than their own husbands.
Personally, while I think the Bible does support that men should be the ultimate leaders of the church, that should include the male eldership equipping all men of the congregation to be spiritual leaders of their current or future families, while making sure there are female leaders in the church counseling the women, instead of the pastor's tear-soaked shoulder coming between a husband and wife.
In some ways I like Driscoll's blunt approach with men, but I agree it is mostly harshness without the encouragement necessary to effect change. If you're going to be direct, the message had better be on-target.
I've seen some stats that suggest the gender divide in religiosity has lessened among the youngest. Though unfortunately it seems to be driven by female apostasy more than male involvement. Still, I have to wonder if a greater balance in the pews will naturally cause churches to masculinize somewhat.
Growing political polarization among the young recently received a write-up from Lyman Stone and Brad Wilcox in The Atlantic. It seems that young women are so far left that it's driving their greater apostasy.
Driscoll was clearly wrong in his means and methods of addressing young men. However, he was one of the few evangelical pastors to notice what was wrong with modern American church life.
In the below clip he acknowledges that churches need to prioritize winning over the young men and he is spot-on with his assessment of what was going on.
https://twitter.com/RogueScholarPr/status/1670615413523111939
Off-topic: It's interesting that Kevin McClure addresses female SBC pastors primarily by seeing it as "advance warning" for blessing LGBT unions. He doesn't address any theological issues about women clergy:
https://americanreformer.org/2023/06/how-many-female-pastors-are-in-the-sbc/
Actually, the relationship to LGBT was just a "concluding thought" and the article directly addressed the violation of scriptural prohibitions against women exercising authority over men.
For some time now it's been fashionable in SBC churches to refer to men as "guys." Never refer to women as gals, though. It's ladies and guys. I've even seen restrooms labeled that way. So now they want the males to "man up." But a guy can't do that. He's just a guy. They should say "Guy up!" But that won't do will it? They've promoted guyism, and now they're stuck with a bunch of guys.
I think part of what runs behind the negativity is the pressure that pastors feel to lead model families as part of their vocation. This is especially true of guys who hope to be high-profile, "winsome" leaders of big churches. They are supposed to have submissive, stay-at-home wives who do generous unpaid work for the church. A rebellious child can be a real threat to his career. I think some of them secretly resent this pressure and deal with it by putting the same kind of pressure back on the men of the congregation.
Direct is fine. Men appreciate that. But give us practical advice. Don’t just harass, harangue and denigrate
Yeh, the Bible is clear that women shouldn't work outside "the house", even Proverbs 31 shows a women working in the family economy, not for another man. She shouldn't have competing authorities and the Bible clearly states that the man who doesn't provide is worse than an infidel. There may be exigent circumstances that play into that, but those should be the exception that prove the rule.
Tangential comment: Mark Driscoll did not open his sermon by praying to God. He pretended to pray, because that gave him a passive and submissive audience for his comments. They were comments, a lecture, not a prayer.
The best that can be said is that this is a dishonest rhetorical style. Being less charitable, such a person does not really feel the presence of God in worship, and thinks a worship service is all about him and his cleverness.
Interesting that he specifically says, "I pray for my tone" when he had already decided he was going to go on a rant at the end. You are right it was not a prayer. I don't know the history of Mars Hill that well, but the comments at around 3:30 in the "How Dare You" clip seem like Driscoll is primarily complaining about low engagement with men attending the church. It sounded like a harsher version of the typical mega church exhortation to become a member and join a small group anyone who has attended one of those churches for more than a few months has heard before. Only in this case, it was solely aimed at men and delivered with the bravado of a pro wrestler. Was there a problem at Mars Hill of women committed and involved to the church with boyfriends/husbands who weren't really engaged?
The tone there gave me goosebumps, and not in a good way -- “pro wrestler” captures it, including the forced artificiality.
I suppose I have a preference for a more sober, teaching sort of sermon. The old Baptist style of preacher who is nearly (or actually) brought to tears with his response to Christ’s grace at his sermon’s emotional peak -- I can appreciate it occasionally, but it’s generally too much for me. But I’ll take that a thousand times over the tone of Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man.
I suspect a lot of these pastors desperately need an unlimited supply of female validation, and the best way to get that is to teach that women need to check all their ideas about the Bible with a wise man, while tearing down their male parishioners' authority to actually speak for themselves. Women are already primed to adulate their pastor (hypergamy), and when they hear every Sunday that their husband sucks but they need male leadership to understand the Bible, where do they go? To nice pastor Mark who is oh so spiritual and is such a better man than their own husbands.
Personally, while I think the Bible does support that men should be the ultimate leaders of the church, that should include the male eldership equipping all men of the congregation to be spiritual leaders of their current or future families, while making sure there are female leaders in the church counseling the women, instead of the pastor's tear-soaked shoulder coming between a husband and wife.
In some ways I like Driscoll's blunt approach with men, but I agree it is mostly harshness without the encouragement necessary to effect change. If you're going to be direct, the message had better be on-target.
It was nice to revisit Newsletter #3. Any progress on this front?
Progress in what respect? I'm not sure what you are referring to.
The Christian church not being so feminized and unappealing to men.
I've seen some stats that suggest the gender divide in religiosity has lessened among the youngest. Though unfortunately it seems to be driven by female apostasy more than male involvement. Still, I have to wonder if a greater balance in the pews will naturally cause churches to masculinize somewhat.
Growing political polarization among the young recently received a write-up from Lyman Stone and Brad Wilcox in The Atlantic. It seems that young women are so far left that it's driving their greater apostasy.
Feels about the same as hearing that premarital sex is down because young men and women aren't as interested in each other anymore.