For good and ill, Catholicism often has a more forgiving attitude toward sins of the flesh than (especially American) Evangelicalism. Dante puts passionate sins on the outer margins of Hell, and his portrayal of lovers damned for their sexual sin (Paolo and Francesca in one of the early cantos of Inferno) shades more toward tragic sympathy than condemnation.
The ill effect of the is, of course, that expecting little of people results in little virtue. The disposition toward a tragic sensibility about sin can become passivity.
That fact that half of regular church attending Christians and practically all of regular church attending Catholics believe premarital sex is okay blows my mind, considering that this is like THE issue that culturally defines them, and is the most taught moral value to their youth.
I do think it's important to note that the question asks whether premarital sex is *always* wrong. I'm not defending a mindset that wants to shade edge case distinctions into personal moral license, but I imagine that 'always' is playing a large role in the percentage.
As such I don't think the poll actually backs up a claim that the majorities therein 'believe premarital sex is okay' in general terms
What I think would be interesting is to compare previous "baby bust" periods with this one, and see if we find any common denominators. There's the obvious Gen X era (65-80), but then also late 20s until WWII. What can we learn from all that to use today?
Going to Deep Springs College was my dream in high school and getting rejected there remains one of my biggest disappointments. The article understates or omits three key things about the school.
1) Until 2018 it was, in accordance with the will of its founder, LL Nunn, an all-male college.
3) It’s super elite. When I applied to college in the fall of 2013, I was accepted into Harvard early action but rejected by Deep Springs. They had a two-round admissions process, and I didn’t even make it to the second round.
On paper there’s no reason why an eccentric Christian philanthropist couldn’t set up a school like this for evangelical Christians. Given the small size of the institution, the usual lack of elite evangelicals problem doesn’t apply. 26 college students and a handful of professors isn’t a big ask. And I imagine evangelicals would be disproportionately interested in this kind of education (all-male, service-oriented, work-college, wilderness environment). Maybe someday soon...
Greg - thanks for sharing. Interesting additional info. I appreciate you sharing your personal disappointments with not getting in as well. That's not always easy to do.
Re: He then hits a point I’ve referenced before, namely that a decline in marriage/partnering rates at least partly underlie this,
That's my impression too. I hear this a lot from younger people: it's hard to meet people, hard to find someone to partner up with. Maybe bring back the louche frat party?
Re: in Protestantism, there’s a high standard for the laity. They are expected to both believe the full teachings of the church, and put them into practice in their own lives. Whereas Catholicism, practically speaking, has much lower expectations of the laity. Culturally, lay Catholics feel free to dissent from the teachings of the church.
If you're a Protestant and there's something being preached in your church you can't swallow, you find a different church whose teachings are more amenable to you. While Catholic churches vary a bit in emphasis the Church's teachings are what they are, for the whole world. Thus there's a certain tolerance for dissent as a means of keeping people in the Church.
Re: Catholicism has many positive attributes, as I’ve highlighted in my book and elsewhere,
First and foremost, it has a much deeper serious intellectual culture. No one will be writing a book titled "The Scandal of the Catholic Mind". (I am speaking as an ex-Catholic who is now Orthodox)
Re: What to Know About the New Obsession With Testosterone
When my energy levels start to flag in my 40s I considered going on testosterone. A medically savvy friend convinced me not to, due to side effects that can have.
Antoń Barbay-Kay wrote, A Web of Our Own Making: The Nature of Digital Formation (Cambridge University Press, 2023) (Atla) , which argues that digital technology is a "natural technology"—so intuitive as to conceal the extent to which it transforms our attention—and that it is reconfiguring knowledge, culture, politics, aesthetics, and theology. This is a must read book IMO. Barbay-Kay is head of Humanities at Deep Springs.
Excellent selection of articles. I appreciate the gift links.
For good and ill, Catholicism often has a more forgiving attitude toward sins of the flesh than (especially American) Evangelicalism. Dante puts passionate sins on the outer margins of Hell, and his portrayal of lovers damned for their sexual sin (Paolo and Francesca in one of the early cantos of Inferno) shades more toward tragic sympathy than condemnation.
The ill effect of the is, of course, that expecting little of people results in little virtue. The disposition toward a tragic sensibility about sin can become passivity.
That fact that half of regular church attending Christians and practically all of regular church attending Catholics believe premarital sex is okay blows my mind, considering that this is like THE issue that culturally defines them, and is the most taught moral value to their youth.
(I also wonder if the designers of the poll intentionally chose that wording to produce a more sensational result)
I do think it's important to note that the question asks whether premarital sex is *always* wrong. I'm not defending a mindset that wants to shade edge case distinctions into personal moral license, but I imagine that 'always' is playing a large role in the percentage.
As such I don't think the poll actually backs up a claim that the majorities therein 'believe premarital sex is okay' in general terms
Aaron:
It's a couple weeks dated, but did you listen to this "Modern Wisdom" podcast on fertility?
https://youtu.be/8eCM3NTBeb4?si=ccx1qmCCMHWPkk3R
It's nearly 4 hours long, but one of the best treatments I've heard, in terms of covering all the ground in a talk format. Some foul language though.
Includes Lyman Stone, Simone Collins, Stephen Shaw. They go on for 4 hours. I listened to it at 2x speed, like a maniac.
I haven't listened to it. Unfortunately - and ironically for someone with a podcast - I don't have a lot of time for listening to podcasts.
What I think would be interesting is to compare previous "baby bust" periods with this one, and see if we find any common denominators. There's the obvious Gen X era (65-80), but then also late 20s until WWII. What can we learn from all that to use today?
Good idea.
Going to Deep Springs College was my dream in high school and getting rejected there remains one of my biggest disappointments. The article understates or omits three key things about the school.
1) Until 2018 it was, in accordance with the will of its founder, LL Nunn, an all-male college.
2) It’s part of a larger network of Nunnian education that also includes the Telluride Association, which went mega-woke. You can read about it in Compact here: https://www.compactmag.com/article/a-black-professor-trapped-in-anti-racist-hell/
3) It’s super elite. When I applied to college in the fall of 2013, I was accepted into Harvard early action but rejected by Deep Springs. They had a two-round admissions process, and I didn’t even make it to the second round.
On paper there’s no reason why an eccentric Christian philanthropist couldn’t set up a school like this for evangelical Christians. Given the small size of the institution, the usual lack of elite evangelicals problem doesn’t apply. 26 college students and a handful of professors isn’t a big ask. And I imagine evangelicals would be disproportionately interested in this kind of education (all-male, service-oriented, work-college, wilderness environment). Maybe someday soon...
Greg - thanks for sharing. Interesting additional info. I appreciate you sharing your personal disappointments with not getting in as well. That's not always easy to do.
Re: He then hits a point I’ve referenced before, namely that a decline in marriage/partnering rates at least partly underlie this,
That's my impression too. I hear this a lot from younger people: it's hard to meet people, hard to find someone to partner up with. Maybe bring back the louche frat party?
Re: in Protestantism, there’s a high standard for the laity. They are expected to both believe the full teachings of the church, and put them into practice in their own lives. Whereas Catholicism, practically speaking, has much lower expectations of the laity. Culturally, lay Catholics feel free to dissent from the teachings of the church.
If you're a Protestant and there's something being preached in your church you can't swallow, you find a different church whose teachings are more amenable to you. While Catholic churches vary a bit in emphasis the Church's teachings are what they are, for the whole world. Thus there's a certain tolerance for dissent as a means of keeping people in the Church.
Re: Catholicism has many positive attributes, as I’ve highlighted in my book and elsewhere,
First and foremost, it has a much deeper serious intellectual culture. No one will be writing a book titled "The Scandal of the Catholic Mind". (I am speaking as an ex-Catholic who is now Orthodox)
Re: What to Know About the New Obsession With Testosterone
When my energy levels start to flag in my 40s I considered going on testosterone. A medically savvy friend convinced me not to, due to side effects that can have.
Antoń Barbay-Kay wrote, A Web of Our Own Making: The Nature of Digital Formation (Cambridge University Press, 2023) (Atla) , which argues that digital technology is a "natural technology"—so intuitive as to conceal the extent to which it transforms our attention—and that it is reconfiguring knowledge, culture, politics, aesthetics, and theology. This is a must read book IMO. Barbay-Kay is head of Humanities at Deep Springs.