We really need to be raising our children to grow up timely (be responsible, look nice in public, appropriately attentive to opposite sex and all that) and looking to start families. One of the single soldiers attending our ministry is nearly enraptured by our 31 year marriage. He was talking to my wife one evening asking her about our marriage and he said, "I want that so much." But I doubt he has a clue what "that" entails. Years of struggle off and on, dealing with the sinful sharp edges of one another and seeing your own sin's destructiveness to another and knowing that only God's grace and mercy can be attributed to being that many years married and still loving one another.
Secondly, the idea that the male and female "incel" situation would manifest in the same way assumes gender sameness in the same sense as society. We don't get true mirror images because the sexes are not the same. The female equivalent of the incel is not the women who can't have sex but the woman who can't find commitment/marriage. Though as I said, a much larger number of women than you might think get essentially no romantic or sexual interest from men.
I don’t see how it’s honest to equate 35+ women who didn’t leverage their youthful beauty to find a long term relationship with 22 year old incel men. That’s like saying a trust fund kid who squandered his family’s wealth knows the same struggles as someone who grew up destitute.
Actually, there are a lot of 35+ women (and some relatively few younger ones as well) who can hardly find a relationship or men who are interested in them at all, at least other then repulsive lowlives. It is less common for women certainly but still very common for middle age/older unmarried women.
No, the struggle to find a marriage partner isn't the same as struggling to find romantic interest at all, but it is certainly a huge problem and I don't think Aaron is saying they are equivalent but rather that both are important, and that even femcels are still a thing and actually not rare. It's just taboo to talk about them as current feminist standards view doing so as being disrespectful of women.
But in reality even many males who appear to be incels are actually just quietly struggling men not feeling able/willing to risk a relationship, who actually could be in one if only they would be willing to take a bit more risk and felt they could afford or had time to make the effort, -or in some cases if they were willing to lower their standards. This later scenario is of course very common for women, even many attractive one who could otherwise easily find a partner. Yet we dont call them femcels but their male equivalents who are also common do get wrongly called incels rather often.
It's too often almost as if lower status men men are supposed to be willing to sacrifice everything for women and have almost no standards for women at all just to be in a relationship as some kind of given, and if such men are (quite reasonably!) not willing to go that route, that somehow makes them loosers, when in reality many are just quietly holding out and unavailable while trying to get to a better place.
In either case, many of these men or women actually do recieve real interest from the opposite sex at least on occasion but don't allow themselves the possibility of a relationship. This can certainly feel involuntary but it is not the same as being chronically single do to not being able to adequately attract a partner.
There is not a corresponding female incel for each male incel. 80%+ of females are screwing the top 20% of males which mean those males are getting more sex but the women are also still getting some sex. The epidemic is really centered in the bottom 50% of men who get zero female attention.
This is a commenly repeated trope and may well be true of at least parts of hookup culture but it is otherwise highly exaggerated nonsense. Yes there is a large gender gap in terms of sex for young adults but all of the available evidence shows that the commonly repeated 80/20 scenario is not anywhere near the case for the total population seeking or in hetrosexual relationships.
There is however a much larger group of young single men then women which is growing and problematic, -and also far more late middle age single women then men. Many of both of these are not involuntary however, or if so not because they recieve no interest from potential prospective partners but do to more personal struggles, -the risk or difficulty just doesn't make a relationship or sex seem feasible to them even if they could have it if they were willing to change a few things (but at a potentially huge personal
I agree - this is an important point that used to be a key theme of fellows like Dalrock. The modern dating scene is defined by what he called serial-monogamy. Yes, the notion of top-quintile men with harems is largely in the imagination of resentful incels (not to say it never happens). However, the data I've seen shows that the pattern in so-called "femcels" is that the bottom-quintiles women have infrequent, short-term sexual relationships with men who are out of their league. While it is true that these women aren't getting the kind of relationships they want, it isn't true that they represent a parallel phenomenon to male incels, who are defined by never having the opportunity to participate in *any kind* of relationship. The femcel is defined by short-term transactional relationships, the incel is differentiated in that he is totally rejected by society altogether as an entirely superfluous person undeserving of *any affection whatsoever.* The femcel's complaint is that she's commoditized, the incel's is that secular society doesn't recognize him as having any value at all.
Nearly any woman below 45 can find a man to have short term, no commitment sex with if she is willing to lower her standards enough. The women who could be classified as femcels aren't willing to go low enough to make that happen.
I don't think it's even as dire as that. From what I've seen, "femcels" do occasionally land a guy who is 2+ quintiles above them for a short time, and it is the very fact that they've occasionally had sexual relationships with these guys that they are now unwilling to accept a man with flaws. The "alpha widow" phenomenon. There was a big twitter spat a few years ago when some moderator on a femcel subreddit admitted that an ex-boyfriend had come over for a one-night stand, and then she complained that he didn't stick around afterwards. If these women weren't getting *any* attention at all, I believe they would end up lowering their unreasonable standards.
So Aaron's statement is only really true at any one given moment. In any one moment, there is approximately an equal number of male incels and femcels, minus those very few women who are willing to date a man in another relationship. But from a larger temporal perspective, a femcel is someone who does get dates and sexual relationships, just infrequently. And I deny that there is any equivalence of experience between that and a man who hasn't been affectionately touched in his entire life. I highly doubt that there are very many women in the world who can actually claim that, and those who do have some extremely rare circumstances.
See my replies above. The gender gap regarding involuntary celibacy is certainly real, substantial, growing and problematic for younger adults but is no where near the commonly repeated 20/80 scenario. All of the evidence shows it to be no where near that large, with the exception of at least parts of hookup culture which most people do not actually participate in.
But there is also a double standard regarding gender and language. In reality even many men percieved to be incels are actually not but rather closer to the situation you describe above with women. It is not culturally acceptable in the west to talk of the most unlucky among women, while it has become increasingly culturally acceptable in mainstream western cultures to lable all men who are long term single and appear to wish otherwise as incels, without actually knowing anything about their real situation or WHY they are single.
Many such people men or women for that matter simply don't feel able/willing to take what seems an undo risk or burden to be in a relationship. This may well be extremely frustrating and isn't necessarily voluntary either, but it is not the same as having known no strong romantic/sexual interest from the opposite sex. The evidence from surveys sugests that this is now actually an extremely commen situation for young marginal American men, far more so then true incel status in fact.
This seems about right. But contra Joe N’s comment, the gap between men and women at the 50th percentile (both of whom can expect to be married at least once by age 40, even among Gen Z) isn’t that large, it’s not really what we’re talking about.
I’d guess the real femcel-incel gap we’re talking about is mainly happening below 30th percentile. Meanwhile the core incel you describe -- let’s say, a male not-by-choice virgin at age 30 -- is maybe a 5-10th percentile phenomenon, though I suppose some might have had to pay for sex.
We really need to be raising our children to grow up timely (be responsible, look nice in public, appropriately attentive to opposite sex and all that) and looking to start families. One of the single soldiers attending our ministry is nearly enraptured by our 31 year marriage. He was talking to my wife one evening asking her about our marriage and he said, "I want that so much." But I doubt he has a clue what "that" entails. Years of struggle off and on, dealing with the sinful sharp edges of one another and seeing your own sin's destructiveness to another and knowing that only God's grace and mercy can be attributed to being that many years married and still loving one another.
I must say, I have a different perspective.
First, there are more genuine femcels than you might think, especially women of a certain age:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/18/i-feel-hurt-that-my-life-has-ended-up-here-the-women-who-are-involuntary-celibates
Secondly, the idea that the male and female "incel" situation would manifest in the same way assumes gender sameness in the same sense as society. We don't get true mirror images because the sexes are not the same. The female equivalent of the incel is not the women who can't have sex but the woman who can't find commitment/marriage. Though as I said, a much larger number of women than you might think get essentially no romantic or sexual interest from men.
I don’t see how it’s honest to equate 35+ women who didn’t leverage their youthful beauty to find a long term relationship with 22 year old incel men. That’s like saying a trust fund kid who squandered his family’s wealth knows the same struggles as someone who grew up destitute.
Actually, there are a lot of 35+ women (and some relatively few younger ones as well) who can hardly find a relationship or men who are interested in them at all, at least other then repulsive lowlives. It is less common for women certainly but still very common for middle age/older unmarried women.
No, the struggle to find a marriage partner isn't the same as struggling to find romantic interest at all, but it is certainly a huge problem and I don't think Aaron is saying they are equivalent but rather that both are important, and that even femcels are still a thing and actually not rare. It's just taboo to talk about them as current feminist standards view doing so as being disrespectful of women.
But in reality even many males who appear to be incels are actually just quietly struggling men not feeling able/willing to risk a relationship, who actually could be in one if only they would be willing to take a bit more risk and felt they could afford or had time to make the effort, -or in some cases if they were willing to lower their standards. This later scenario is of course very common for women, even many attractive one who could otherwise easily find a partner. Yet we dont call them femcels but their male equivalents who are also common do get wrongly called incels rather often.
It's too often almost as if lower status men men are supposed to be willing to sacrifice everything for women and have almost no standards for women at all just to be in a relationship as some kind of given, and if such men are (quite reasonably!) not willing to go that route, that somehow makes them loosers, when in reality many are just quietly holding out and unavailable while trying to get to a better place.
In either case, many of these men or women actually do recieve real interest from the opposite sex at least on occasion but don't allow themselves the possibility of a relationship. This can certainly feel involuntary but it is not the same as being chronically single do to not being able to adequately attract a partner.
There is not a corresponding female incel for each male incel. 80%+ of females are screwing the top 20% of males which mean those males are getting more sex but the women are also still getting some sex. The epidemic is really centered in the bottom 50% of men who get zero female attention.
This is a commenly repeated trope and may well be true of at least parts of hookup culture but it is otherwise highly exaggerated nonsense. Yes there is a large gender gap in terms of sex for young adults but all of the available evidence shows that the commonly repeated 80/20 scenario is not anywhere near the case for the total population seeking or in hetrosexual relationships.
There is however a much larger group of young single men then women which is growing and problematic, -and also far more late middle age single women then men. Many of both of these are not involuntary however, or if so not because they recieve no interest from potential prospective partners but do to more personal struggles, -the risk or difficulty just doesn't make a relationship or sex seem feasible to them even if they could have it if they were willing to change a few things (but at a potentially huge personal
I agree - this is an important point that used to be a key theme of fellows like Dalrock. The modern dating scene is defined by what he called serial-monogamy. Yes, the notion of top-quintile men with harems is largely in the imagination of resentful incels (not to say it never happens). However, the data I've seen shows that the pattern in so-called "femcels" is that the bottom-quintiles women have infrequent, short-term sexual relationships with men who are out of their league. While it is true that these women aren't getting the kind of relationships they want, it isn't true that they represent a parallel phenomenon to male incels, who are defined by never having the opportunity to participate in *any kind* of relationship. The femcel is defined by short-term transactional relationships, the incel is differentiated in that he is totally rejected by society altogether as an entirely superfluous person undeserving of *any affection whatsoever.* The femcel's complaint is that she's commoditized, the incel's is that secular society doesn't recognize him as having any value at all.
Nearly any woman below 45 can find a man to have short term, no commitment sex with if she is willing to lower her standards enough. The women who could be classified as femcels aren't willing to go low enough to make that happen.
I don't think it's even as dire as that. From what I've seen, "femcels" do occasionally land a guy who is 2+ quintiles above them for a short time, and it is the very fact that they've occasionally had sexual relationships with these guys that they are now unwilling to accept a man with flaws. The "alpha widow" phenomenon. There was a big twitter spat a few years ago when some moderator on a femcel subreddit admitted that an ex-boyfriend had come over for a one-night stand, and then she complained that he didn't stick around afterwards. If these women weren't getting *any* attention at all, I believe they would end up lowering their unreasonable standards.
So Aaron's statement is only really true at any one given moment. In any one moment, there is approximately an equal number of male incels and femcels, minus those very few women who are willing to date a man in another relationship. But from a larger temporal perspective, a femcel is someone who does get dates and sexual relationships, just infrequently. And I deny that there is any equivalence of experience between that and a man who hasn't been affectionately touched in his entire life. I highly doubt that there are very many women in the world who can actually claim that, and those who do have some extremely rare circumstances.
See my replies above. The gender gap regarding involuntary celibacy is certainly real, substantial, growing and problematic for younger adults but is no where near the commonly repeated 20/80 scenario. All of the evidence shows it to be no where near that large, with the exception of at least parts of hookup culture which most people do not actually participate in.
But there is also a double standard regarding gender and language. In reality even many men percieved to be incels are actually not but rather closer to the situation you describe above with women. It is not culturally acceptable in the west to talk of the most unlucky among women, while it has become increasingly culturally acceptable in mainstream western cultures to lable all men who are long term single and appear to wish otherwise as incels, without actually knowing anything about their real situation or WHY they are single.
Many such people men or women for that matter simply don't feel able/willing to take what seems an undo risk or burden to be in a relationship. This may well be extremely frustrating and isn't necessarily voluntary either, but it is not the same as having known no strong romantic/sexual interest from the opposite sex. The evidence from surveys sugests that this is now actually an extremely commen situation for young marginal American men, far more so then true incel status in fact.
This seems about right. But contra Joe N’s comment, the gap between men and women at the 50th percentile (both of whom can expect to be married at least once by age 40, even among Gen Z) isn’t that large, it’s not really what we’re talking about.
I’d guess the real femcel-incel gap we’re talking about is mainly happening below 30th percentile. Meanwhile the core incel you describe -- let’s say, a male not-by-choice virgin at age 30 -- is maybe a 5-10th percentile phenomenon, though I suppose some might have had to pay for sex.